sudo-discuss

sudo-discuss@sudoroom.org

9 participants
7554 discussions

by Eddan Katz

I went to an Oakland mayoral candidate event for Bryan Parker on Tuesday. There was a short opportunity during the event to mention people's individual interest in the race and I gave a tweet-length description of Sudo Room. In the after-mingling part, a few people (none of whom I knew before) wanted to learn more. Actually - there was one person there I've seen before - the bearded guy who runs a video editing shop down on the Mezzanine level of our building in the kitchen/conference room (technically 2143 Broadway, I believe) - he was in fact doing some video for the event. He's cool. All but one of the comments and reactions were very positive, including from Phil Tagami, an apparently big-wig developer in Oakland. He wants to come check out Sudo Room sometime and even mentioned he'd had an interview with someone that hung around Sudo Room and had heard interesting things about it. But I digress. The one negative comment came when someone asked me if I knew anything about the lock-picking class that was held at a hackerspace in Oakland some time back. After explaining a bit about Workshop Weekend and that the event took place at Sudo Room, he asked "What the %^&$^ #$%^ #$%^ were you thinking?" It made me realize that we should probably try to tell our side of the story, which we hadn't really publicly. Below are excerpts from the drafts of public statements at the time from the sudo-discuss archives. Workshop Weekend published their statement on their website at the time, but Sudo Room never collectively went through agreeing on and fine-tuning the substance of such a public statement. Given that Workshop Weekend (http://workshopweekend.net/) is taking place next weekend, I thought it might make sense to re-visit our drafts and try to piece something together. The fact that the Police Chief Jordan has since gone into early retirement (though retained his high-tier benefits) during a week when Oakland had 3 different police chiefs and got razor-thin close to federal receivership - would likely work in our favor. > From: "J.D. Zamfirescu" <zamfire(a)gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] It's Unconscionable > Date: March 1, 2013 11:14:30 AM PST > To: sudo-discuss <sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org> > > For those interested, Workshop Weekend (that is, my brother and I) prepared the following statement on the lockpicking issue. We fully support Sudo Room having its own statement on the issue too. > > =========== > Over the past two days, Workshop Weekend has received complaints from concerned citizens of Oakland about the upcoming "Introduction to Lockpicking" workshop being offered as part of Workshop Weekend on March 2, 2013. The workshop will run as scheduled, but in response to community concerns, lock-picking tools will no longer be offered for sale at the event. > > As Oakland residents ourselves, we have felt Oakland's crime problem, and we appreciate the community's concerns that offering a lock-picking workshop appears to encourage crime and sends the wrong message. We recognize now that it was insensitive to have the workshop listed and broadcast in the way that it was, and we regret doing so. > > To provide some background, Workshop Weekend invited The Open Organization of Lockpickers (TOOOL) to run a workshop about lock-picking and lock mechanisms this weekend. > > Exploring lock-picking and understanding the limitations of locks is valuable for everyone who relies on locks for physical security, and in kids it can spark an interest in mechanical engineering and complex systems. > > We would also like to share the following note from TOOOL, the group offering the session: "We in TOOOL are of course sensitive to the concern that occasionally surrounds our lock-themed workshops. We can only hope that the atmosphere of openness, information sharing, and strong ethical standards which is a part of all TOOOL meetings can assuage some concerns. Knowing about the weaknesses in certain locks protects the public; it does not aid criminals. Please visit our website -- toool.us -- for more information." > > We hope this note makes things clear to everyone; our goal is provide an educational and inclusive experience for everyone in Oakland who would like to be involved with our events. > > Workshop Weekend is a two-day celebration of hands-on learning taking place in the heart of downtown Oakland, bringing together kids and adults from Oakland as well as the rest of the Bay Area. The event encourages exploration of new interests and passions by offering over 40 workshops in subjects not typically taught in schools, including aeroponics, electronics, and 3D printing. For more information, visit workshopweekend.net > > We welcome your thoughts and comments at feedback(a)workshopweekend.net > =========== > > From: Eddan <eddan(a)clear.net> > Subject: Re: [sudo-discuss] It's Unconscionable > Date: March 2, 2013 1:37:00 PM PST > To: Daniel Finlay <namelessdan(a)gmail.com> > Cc: sudo-discuss <sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org> > Reply-To: eddan(a)eddan.com > > Not sure how to append or collate this with Daniel's section, but included below is a draft of suggested comments I tried piecing together. I think that if we are to have a statement, that we should merge our various contributions to represent one voice. I'm not sure what platform is best to do this kind of thing on, but have had some positive experience with http://www.co-ment.com/. > > > > sent from eddan.com > > > > --- > > To our community – > > > It is in good conscience that we, the members of Sudo Room, host the Lock-Picking session at the Workshop Weekend taking place at 2141 Broadway [and Tech Liminal] today. As even a quick glance at the rest of the program would make clear, we are a diverse community of technologists, artists, and activists joined together by the ambition of figuring things out for ourselves and teaching other people how to do it. > > A further step back would reveal a context of free and open to the public educational opportunities covering everything from sewing recycled fabric into sustainable clothing; making vanilla extract to experiment with new flavors of ice cream; creating a transparent and democratic corporate governance; and indeed yes – taking locks apart and reverse engineering software. > > Regarding the option of calling a locksmith, an Oakland resident locked out of their house or car should be advised to read through the peer review websites carefully for reputable services before calling their number. It is our general belief that public safety is better served when the skills necessary to be hired as a locksmith, for example, are taught in classrooms rather than by picking it up in the actual commission of crimes. > > We share in our city’s mourning of the death of Kiante Campbell at the Art Murmur last month. Collectively and as individuals, we are also aware of and concerned about the alarming levels of crime in our neighborhoods. It is in fact those concerns that have made for the greatest challenges in offering an openly accessible entrance to our building. Being a horizontally-governed organization, the compromised option of only several people having the keys is problematic. We are now experimenting in our own space with ways that can increase security while preserving the privacy of the general public. We intend to share our results publicly on our website and wiki, as with all of our other projects, so that public safety in Oakland can be more effectively enforced. > > We regret that Mayor Quan stepped back from her support of the event, though we appreciate her support for our innovative programs that are bringing about an emergent start-up technology culture in downtown Oakland. We can certainly sympathize with the overwhelming task of responsibly editing a large amount of information such as what is in the Mayors’ newsletter. We intend for this unfortunate series of misunderstandings to be yet another incentive for us to work on some of the projects we’ve already started – those aimed towards more efficiently sorting through large volumes of information to allow for making editorial judgment calls more fairly. > > We would like to take this unsolicited opportunity to make our intentions clear with Police Chief Jordan and Mayor Quan. We have among us people who can contribute a great deal to solving our law enforcement technology problems and addressing the cyber-security concerns of critical infrastructure such as the Port of Oakland. We hope to get a chance to work together with our city’s leaders in bringing cutting-edge capacity building to the people of Oakland with sustainable and equitable economic structures. We are trying to be very conscientious about it – we welcome you to drop by one of our many events or visit our website for information about our initiatives. > > > > On Sat, Mar 2, 2013 at 12:51 PM, Daniel Finlay <namelessdan(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Anca's right, this is a huge opportunity. > > Lower dues, anyone? > > Here's my caricature of opportunism, feel free to tune down the tone to your tact level of preference: > > The admonition of lockpicking classes by the Mayor and Police Chief of Oakland are as unconscionable as the thefts they purport to be in fear of. While the alarmists claim that publicly available lockpicking classes may promote criminal activity, they lose sight that this class is in the context of a larger public enrichment. > > Despite being only a few months old, Sudoroom has already made itself host to a wide variety of educational, cooperative, and even marketable skill-building classes and events for hundreds of local residents. From programming computers and 3-D printing to curing cheese and modifying DNA, Sudo Room is a free, community sponsored place for fostering the collaborative creativity that comes with groups full of intellectual curiosity in a time of as much change and development as this one. > > In a time where people's opportunities might lead them to crime, perhaps we ought to provide better alternatives rather than stupefying the public as a form of self defense. > > Let us address the cause of this sickness rather than try to snuff out its symptoms, and give ourselves access to an unfettered flow of knowledge and opportunity. We encourage you to participate in this local renaissance, by visiting the Sudoroom yourself, and taking part in any of the classes of your interest. You can always find the upcoming events at sudoroom.org/calendar, or just stop by almost any time to join your neighbors in their curious pursuits. > > Feel free to fork it at https://gist.github.com/flyswatter/5070131 > > -Dan > > > > On Mar 1, 2013, at 11:27 PM, Anca Mosoiu <anca(a)techliminal.com> wrote: > >> >> On Fri, Mar 1, 2013 at 6:35 PM, Michael Scroggins <michaeljscroggins(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> The sentence implicitly draws a difference of kind between the lock picking class and the other Workshop Weekend classes. Doing so invites the question: What is the difference that makes broadcasting this workshop (in the way it was) regrettable? In an environment where the mayor, the chief of police and the media have all given the same answer - the class breeds criminals - allowing that question is regrettable. >> >> It's regrettable because it gave some easy pickings for the people who want to portray Oakland, and the current administration, in a certain way. Many of the people who are upset about the workshop aren't upset about lockpicking, they're upset that Jean Quan appears to encourage crime in her newsletter. >> >> It's regrettable because it sucked up airwaves and mental effort that might have been better spent. >> >> Drafting a reasoned and reasonable response lowers the blood pressure of the people who are up in arms just because they aren't informed. Some of them will come around, especially if they understand the actual intent of the class. >> >> Eddan, I'd like to participate in writing a statement. I was really taken aback when I read some of the emails and talked to some of the people who were actually upset. >> >> The media storm will blow over with the next foot-in-mouth opportunity from a local politician, but we have a great opportunity to reach out while the world is looking. >> >> Anca. >> >> >> -- >> -=-=-=- >> Anca Mosoiu | Tech Liminal >> anca(a)techliminal.com >> M: (510) 220-6660 >> http://techliminal.com | T: @techliminal | F: facebook.com/techliminal >> _______________________________________________ >> sudo-discuss mailing list >> sudo-discuss(a)lists.sudoroom.org >> http://lists.sudoroom.org/listinfo/sudo-discuss >>>> >>>> Now, this requires a response. Has anybody started drafting something? If not, I will. >>>> >>>> ... >>>> Oakland Police Chief Howard Jordan was not pleased. >>>> >>>> "I'm in shock that people would provide a class to teach people a skill to violate the law," Jordan said. "It's unconscionable." >>>> >>>> Lock-pick instructor Michael Fitzhugh is a member of TOOOL (The Open Organisation Of Lockpickers), a Netherlands-based outfit that teaches and holds national and international lock-picking events annually. In their world, lock picking is done for sport and bragging rights. But, he says, it's also a useful tool if you lock yourself out of your home. >>>> >>>> Jordan has a more conventional solution to that problem: "Call a locksmith!" >>>> >>>> http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Quan-s-wrong-note-on-lock-picking-cla… >>>> >>>> >>>> Even worse than Quan, this guy's so desperate to change the subject about the incompetence of the OPD in news story after news story. >>>> >>>> Unconscionable!?! This coming from a police department that was about to go into an unprecedented federal receivership for its failure to reform; not to mention a police department seared with a global reputation for brutality, racism, and excessive means; and whose fundamental miscalculations and mismanagement of the response to Occupy cost the city millions of dollars.

13 years

Sudo Room LinkedIn stats

by Eddan Katz

> > Here are your Company Page stats for September > > > > > > Sudo Room Company Page stats for September > > > > > New! Sponsored Updates > Raise brand awareness, build relationships, and generate quality leads by sponsoring updates in the LinkedIn feed — across desktop, smartphone, and tablet devices. Learn more » > > > > > > Here's a snapshot of how Sudo Room did this past month > > > > See more stats > > > > > > > TOTAL FOLLOWERS STATUS UPDATES > > 16 0 > > NEW FOLLOWERS PAGE VIEWS > > 16 84 > > > > > > > > MOST POPULAR STATUS UPDATE > > > Microsoft: Introducing Surface 2 and Surface Pro 2. Details here: http://msft.it/6184wF1E > > > > > > PEOPLE WHO ARE NOW FOLLOWING YOUR PAGE See All > > > > Sonja Trauss > > High School Math Teacher at Tilden Prep School > > > David Wallace > > Software Engineer, Digital Artist, Photographer > > > Eddan Katz > > Co-Founder & Ex-Exchequer at Sudo Room > > > Harold V. Gaskill, PE > > Pavement and Subgrade Engineering DIY Tech Ad Hoc Programming > > > Note: Discrepancies may exist between what is shown in the email and data on the Company Page. > > If you need assistance or have questions, please contact LinkedIn Customer Service. > This is an occasional email to help you get the most out of LinkedIn. Unsubscribe. > This email was intended for Eddan Katz (Co-Founder & Ex-Exchequer at Sudo Room). Learn why we include this. > > © 2013, LinkedIn Corporation. All rights reserved. LinkedIn Corp. 2029 Stierlin Court, Mountain View CA 94043 > > > >

13 years

Fwd: Pan Theatre Lecture - 8:45-10:15pm Friday night

by Eddan Katz

sent from eddan.com Begin forwarded message: > From: "Laurie Cooperman Rosen" <Lscoop(a)comcast.net> > Date: October 3, 2013, 7:25:11 AM PDT > To: "'Laurie Cooperman Rosen'" <Lscoop(a)comcast.net> > Subject: Pan Theatre Lecture - 8:45-10:15pm Friday night > > Hi All- > Pan has a special guest lecturer flying up from L.A. tomorrow (Friday) night and is asking that people keep the sound down as much as possible during that time (8:45-10:15). This includes loud music upstairs (i.e. the piano), and I do not believe that anybody should be using the open space downstairs in 2135 that evening. Thanks for your consideration. > Laurie & George > >

13 years

was there a post a long time ago about 'hack your period'?

by Sonja Trauss

I just found out that avoiding pregnancy via rhythm method is pretty reliable and not even hard to do considering there are 250 apps to help you do it. HOWEVER, this app is asking me questions I don't know the answers to - how do you tell where your cervix is? is cervical fluid different than the regular goo that comes out of my vagina? how do I tell my temperature? Did the non- annoying period app ever get made? now that I understand what it's for, I am interested in helping on this project. I'm using ovuline mostly. I like the interface, although I am annoyed that ALL PERIOD APPS (except two) assume (1) I am a woman, (2) I am trying to GET pregnant instead of trying to AVOID getting pregnant. Check out "MyGirls," it is a very amazing cultural artifact made by two Russian physics graduate students in washington state. It assumes users are men.

13 years

[Important] Lease Status

by Matthew Senate

Just to clarify, Eddan's original email was a little misleading. Sudo Room has an opportunity to renew its lease at the end of December, or to change it, including purchasing a portion of the building as a co-op, potentially using the JOBS act or some such. Eddan will be getting off the lease by his own preference. Terms are not exactly clear, we need to check whether the lease can remain exactly as-is (will confirm with Eddan) or if certain terms need to be changed. There were some heated discussions on- and off-list, I hope everyone gets this message and realizes the situation was ambiguous and is actually copacetic. // Matt

13 years

Re: [sudo-discuss] Let's move in together!

by ahnon

13 years

Re: [sudo-discuss] {BayAreaPublicSchool} Re: Let's move in together!

by Patrik D'haeseleer

---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Marc Juul <juul(a)labitat.dk> Date: Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 5:25 PM Subject: [CCL] 1545 Willow st photos and response from Margo Prado To: "counterculturelabs(a)googlegroups.com" < counterculturelabs(a)googlegroups.com> I just visited 1545 Willow st with Jenny and Craig. We took photos and talked to the real-estate agent and landlord. There were two spaces of a bit more than 3000 sqft but only one was wheelchair accessible. The other could be made wheelchair accessible, but it's on the second floor and the elevator has been taken out of service and some amount of money would be needed to re-instate it. They showed us two spaces. The ground-floor is wheelchair-accessible ~3200 sqft space. The other space is about sudo room sized (we'll get the exact size soon). The big space has five small offices on one wall with windows to the street. This is the only natural light coming into that space. There is another small office in the corner of the big space with no natural light. One of the small offices has a sink but the big room does not, so we'd have to spend some effort/money to get sinks in the main room, but it's definitely doable. There are shared bathrooms with the other spaces in the building. They looked like they could use some fixing, but at least one sink and toilet was working in both men's and women's bathroom. There was a makeshift shower in the men's bathroom but it was disconnected. The smaller room has natural light and a sink in the room. Here are the photos. Mouse-over the images to see which space they are from. http://imgur.com/a/MDbp4 The big space has a bigger entrance directly to the street that has been sealed off but can be easily re-opened if we want a direct entrance or if we need to bring in big equipment. The spaces both have a working sprinkler system. The ceilings are tall enough in the big space that we could create more space by splitting some of the space vertically in half. They said the deposit for the big space would be somewhere between three months rent and $9000. The landlord is a bit off, but really happy and friendly, and he seems very flexible. The real-estate agent said he would send me more info on the spaces, and I will forward to the group when I get it. My personal feeling is that this is could be a really good space for us. We can start with the small space, but I'm also pretty excited about the bigger space. The only thing I didn't like is the lack of sunlight. We may be able to remedy that somewhat by removing the walls to a couple of the smaller offices. I didn't ask on the list if anyone wanted to come along, because the real-estate agent called me at 2:20 and said he could show it to me at 3:00. I also got a response from Margo Prado. It'd be easier to forward the email to the list, but I don't like forwarding emails to a public mailing list without checking with the author first, but here is a summary. Margot wants to help us! She says she hopes to attend one of our open nights, possibly in September, and that she joined our meetup group. She believes that anything that allows the "Research Service" activity is fine for us. Normally I'd be dubious, since it contradicts my own research, but Margot apparently wrote the new industrial zones in the mid 2000's and created the Research and Development activity. She probably knows what she's talking about :-) She goes on to talk about a bunch of potential spaces, but I'll just forward the whole email to the list if she says it's ok. For now, I have attached the pdfs she sent me with some of the potential spaces. -- Marc -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Counter Culture Labs" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to counterculturelabs+unsubscribe(a)googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

13 years

Fwd: [CCL] Fwd: 1545 Willow spaces

by Patrik D'haeseleer

Yep, it's 1545 Willow. Some more info attached below. Patrik ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Marc Juul <juul(a)labitat.dk> Date: Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 10:15 PM Subject: [CCL] Fwd: 1545 Willow spaces To: "counterculturelabs(a)googlegroups.com" < counterculturelabs(a)googlegroups.com> More info on the 1545 willow space ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Peter McNally <peter(a)mcnra.com> Date: Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 9:53 PM Subject: 1545 Willow spaces To: juul(a)labitat.dk Hi Marc, Thanks for coming out to see the spaces today. Here’s the additional info to help y’all along. Look forward to your feedback. Cheers- Peter McNally McNally Realty Advisors 1061 Eastshore, Suite 200 Albany, CA 94710 510-848-6007 510-526-5668 (fax) 510-207-6007 (cell) peter(a)mcnra.com [image: MRA Final Logo] -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Counter Culture Labs" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to counterculturelabs+unsubscribe(a)googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

13 years

Privacy/Fourth Amendment activists - meeting at Sudo Room on Saturday

by Alice Townes

Hello Sudo Room subscribers, I'm writing to you to make sure you know about a meeting this Saturday for privacy/Fourth Amendment activists. We're planning a lot of new things as well as recruiting for current things during the meeting, and you should come if you are interested. https://www.facebook.com/events/394998687290066/ Thanks! Alice

13 years

Morning Math Restated

by Thomas Fitzpatrick

If there are no objections, I'm reenstating Morning Math. I think a new name is in order and would like to field a couple - Math Gym, Visceral Mathematics, Romancing Methods... Sessions will start at 7:30 AM. I will be staying and holding up the torch until 11:30. Participants are free to come and go as the please between those times on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursday (no pressure to show up on all days, but I will be there) with the possibility of more days. All levels are welcome - there will always be something to do. The vision is that despite skill levels and relative experiences, we can all benefit from contact with each other as Mathematicians. My favorite learning environment is a boxing gym and I think that is where our social norms should be derived from. * Many different styles of boxing and training - trainers are free to take on students, students can go to new trainers, or you can have no trainer and get bits of advice from many people * People arriving and leaving at disparate times as opposed to Karate classes where everyone must arrive at the same time. The flow is mantained regardless. You tell your trainer you are arrived and start your warm-ups. When they are available they will teach you something or give you an exercise you are familiar with - coming around to check on you and correct your form. * All skill levels and levels of fitness - Hanger-ons, the elderly, novices, pros, trainers all derive social satisfaction. Everyone is free to improve at their own pace without being turned away from the sport. Bullying is not tolerated * Everyone is given the opportunity to teach - this advice is trusted based on their reputation - many views abound and the student is free to choose the styles and techniques they want to emulate. * Instruction is given and then the student is left to practice the motions - the memory is important - by they have to get a feel for it on their own. They can be corrected, but the trainer is also free to help other students. * Some routines are done in groups while others are done alone - most can be practiced in both contexts * The right exercises are chosen to get you to the next level. There is no set protocol for what you do each time. You are free to choose what you do next - though others may tell you better. * No one goes in the ring without a trainer watching (the analogy breaks down here) * Sparing is the most valuable experience as it builds your fight intuition. We predict punches - we don't react. It takes half a second for your brain to tell you to move - if you have to wait you will get hit. That is why you will often take it slow or only do defense or offense to trim your concerns. * The focus is learning. Preparing for your match. The primary question I have is how to teach Mathematics the way Music/Sports are? How do you teach intuition and problem solving? How do groups with disparate schedules and skill levels benefit the most from each other? I propose the following norms. (I will pare them down over time): * Agreements on reading materials/problems are between those you agreed to read with - not the entire group * You can come to as many or as few sessions as you please - there will always be something to do. (analogous problems) * Progress and minutes are prominently displayed to bring people up to speed without breaking the flow * Discussion groups form and disperse based on the creative process. * It is better to ask questions than to give others the solution when they are solving a problem. Empathize to give the right hint * It is better to try problems than to merely discuss, pencil must move over paper (or code across screen) - experience is more valuable than lectures. * Pictures are essential tools * Assisted/Group work is valuable for discovering the process, but the intuitive jump or connection is up to the student * Problems can be generalized, specialized or analogous problems chosen to keep everyone in the loop - to give and get insight as student and teacher. * The learning zone is right beyond your current abilities, but not so hard you have nothing to grasp onto. * Talent is overrated <http://www.amazon.com/Talent-Overrated-World-Class-Performers-EverybodyElse…> Here are some books I would personally like to study with anyone - in these time slots or otherwise. Suggestions are welcome :) # Good general Problems Delightful Puzzles <http://gurmeet.net/puzzles/> - Scroll to Bottom for other great lists - These are very accessible The Stanford Mathematics Problem Book <http://www.amazon.com/The-Stanford-Mathematics-Problem-Book/dp/0486469247/r…>- Has a hint key and an answer key! # Problem Solving Techniques How To Solve It <http://www.amazon.com/How-Solve-It-Mathematical-Princeton/dp/069111966X/ref…> Mathematics and Plausible Reasoning <http://www.amazon.com/Mathematics-Plausible-Reasoning-Patterns-Inference/dp…> # History of Math Mathematics and Its History <http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/144196052X/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8…> # Applied Mathematics Methods of Mathematics Applied to Calculus, Probability and Statistics <http://www.amazon.com/Methods-Mathematics-Calculus-Probability-Statistics/d…> Numerical Methods for Scientists and Engineers <http://www.amazon.com/Numerical-Methods-Scientists-Engineers-Mathematics/dp…> # Discrete Mathematics Concrete Mathematics <http://www.amazon.com/Concrete-Mathematics-Foundation-Computer-Science/dp/0…> There is interest in studying Visual Complex Analysis <http://www.amazon.com/Visual-Complex-Analysis-Tristan-Needham/dp/0198534469…>. The Complex-plane is an alternative to x-y coordinates that makes many problems much easier and more intuitive to reason about. It was named Complex to be vindictive by mathematicians who didn't understand its worth. AND IT USES PICTURES

13 years

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sudo-discuss